The problem is with logic like this "But there were things that helped my grandfather’s business that he didn’t have to pay for. The roads trucks drove on to bring him products to sell. The court system that incorporated his business and protected the patents of what he sold. The police force that made it safe for people to shop there. The public schools that taught his employees how to read and do math, so my grandfather didn’t have to teach them. Make no mistake about it — my grandfather succeeded because of his hard work and initiative. But government played a supporting role."
All this is provided for every person in the US including all the self chosen unemployed, the illegal aliens, the welfare moochers, and everyone else with their hand out unwilling to do the hard work to make something of themselves.
Who is it exactly that finances the American government? Oh, that's right. Americans. American business owners. American workers.
Don't tell us that we didn't pay for the roads or bridges or courthouses or education. We pay the government to do that with taxes. (And frankly, I think the private sector and local governments could do most of those things more effectively and efficiently)
I think I'd be ok with a flat tax- everyone pays the same percentage. That does mean though that all of those who don't pay any taxes (something like half of all Americans) would see a tax increase.
The other problem with Obama's logic - and it's the bigger problem as I see it - is that the government does not generate anything. The dollars that are invested are taxpayer dollars. To me, his speech sounds two faced. Out of one side he says we can't do anything without government. Out of the other he says he can't do anything without our money then bypasses all checks and balances to steal it from us.
Fox News and "conservatives" / Republicans have always been pro-government despite their rhetoric, so it doesn't really come as any surprise that this is coming from Fox (plus it's an opinion piece at that).
@Cody: A flat tax is unnecessary. Actually, so is the income tax. If "defense" and other spending were cut down to more reasonable levels, the government could easily survive on the other forms of taxation.
It's been about a year since I've done the numbers, but if the defense budget were cut to 2002 levels I believe we'd be more than 3/4 of the way there.
Americans can succeed without government as we know it today. What we need is the protection of our rights and liberties from threats, both foreign and domestic. That is quite literally all America -- and any country, really -- needs in order to flourish and succeed.
What we need is "liberty and justice for all", and unfortunately, we don't have that.
Instead we have a government that's constantly growing in size and power and that takes over 1/3 of our income yearly. Then it uses that money and power to start wars that only serve to make everyone else hate us more; to create new and enforce existing laws that violate our personal freedoms that are supposed to be protected; to spy on us; to subsidize its cronies; to devalue our currency; and to control.
@duuude I don't claim to know much about taxes- I'm just saying if we are going to make people pay their "fair share" maybe everyone should have to?
Also, I'm not against cutting some defense, and I'm definitely in favor cutting some entitlements as well though. I heard a quote recently- You get more of what you subsidize and less of what you penalize.
Railways, the internet, highways, schools, hospitals - all of these were created long before any government decided they were part of a state's remit. The problem isn't that we can't succeed without government, but that successive governments since the 1930s have tried very hard to make their citizens dependent.
As a former business owner, I understand the fury, if taken out of context. I believe he was stating that America is great because we work hard, don't complain, and we innovate, but, that we all Should be grateful for the country we live in that allows us to do as we please, and to be grateful that people chose to do jobs we don't want to. Like it or not our country needs the lowliest and the most grandiose of workers for all of us to make it. We are simbiotic, granted the government is a parasite, but because they do provide infrastructure, there is much modern success that wouldn't be as well off without them. Yes the government doesn't make money, but they do spend it, and a portion does come back to us, to businesses and to people that support the businesses. Yes, tax dollars get wasted, yes people don't pay, or don't pay their fair share of taxes, but we can't all have the privilege of being a government worker and get off Scott free, our country would collapse. I think a flat tax, where everybody pays, even corporations and that all loop holes are gotten rid of, as well as subsidies.
An important note, one that needs to get repeated more. All Americans, or very nearly all (99.9999%) pay taxes. They pay sales taxes, they directly or directly pay property taxes, social security and other federal or state withholdings that don't qualify under "income tax". Not paying taxes and not making enough income to pay income taxes are not the same thing at all.
Another important note to make in this ever-going debate: hard work in the U.S. is necessary for success, but just because you work hard doesn't mean you'll be successful.
The fact is, we don't know how many people are taking advantage of the system. But that doesn't mean either side can use the argument from ignorance. It doesn't mean most are mooching. It doesn't mean most aren't, and just can't catch a break. It means we don't know.
And finally - the highway system as we know it was not created before government. The concept, sure, but the US highway system was a direct result of Eisenhower. Also, the internet was born directly out of DARPA funded research into networked computer systems, ARPANET being the flagship networked computer system.
Let's face it, this kind of moronic thinking is designed to illicit an emotional response from the stupid. And when I say stupid, I mean dumb self entitled people who think they are owed something for nothing. People who think life should be "Fair" according to "THEIR" own standards.
The problem is, to many people in this country don't realize that even as a broke person, you are the 1% compared to the rest of the planet. Just an FYI.
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AmazngSpiderpig 12 years, 4 months ago
The problem is with logic like this "But there were things that helped my grandfather’s business that he didn’t have to pay for. The roads trucks drove on to bring him products to sell. The court system that incorporated his business and protected the patents of what he sold. The police force that made it safe for people to shop there. The public schools that taught his employees how to read and do math, so my grandfather didn’t have to teach them. Make no mistake about it — my grandfather succeeded because of his hard work and initiative. But government played a supporting role."
All this is provided for every person in the US including all the self chosen unemployed, the illegal aliens, the welfare moochers, and everyone else with their hand out unwilling to do the hard work to make something of themselves.
Reply
Cody 12 years, 4 months ago
Who is it exactly that finances the American government? Oh, that's right. Americans. American business owners. American workers.
Don't tell us that we didn't pay for the roads or bridges or courthouses or education. We pay the government to do that with taxes. (And frankly, I think the private sector and local governments could do most of those things more effectively and efficiently)
I think I'd be ok with a flat tax- everyone pays the same percentage. That does mean though that all of those who don't pay any taxes (something like half of all Americans) would see a tax increase.
Reply
mango333 12 years, 4 months ago
The other problem with Obama's logic - and it's the bigger problem as I see it - is that the government does not generate anything. The dollars that are invested are taxpayer dollars. To me, his speech sounds two faced. Out of one side he says we can't do anything without government. Out of the other he says he can't do anything without our money then bypasses all checks and balances to steal it from us.
Reply
duuude 12 years, 4 months ago
Fox News and "conservatives" / Republicans have always been pro-government despite their rhetoric, so it doesn't really come as any surprise that this is coming from Fox (plus it's an opinion piece at that).
@Cody: A flat tax is unnecessary. Actually, so is the income tax. If "defense" and other spending were cut down to more reasonable levels, the government could easily survive on the other forms of taxation.
It's been about a year since I've done the numbers, but if the defense budget were cut to 2002 levels I believe we'd be more than 3/4 of the way there.
Reply
duuude 12 years, 4 months ago
Americans can succeed without government as we know it today. What we need is the protection of our rights and liberties from threats, both foreign and domestic. That is quite literally all America -- and any country, really -- needs in order to flourish and succeed.
What we need is "liberty and justice for all", and unfortunately, we don't have that.
Instead we have a government that's constantly growing in size and power and that takes over 1/3 of our income yearly. Then it uses that money and power to start wars that only serve to make everyone else hate us more; to create new and enforce existing laws that violate our personal freedoms that are supposed to be protected; to spy on us; to subsidize its cronies; to devalue our currency; and to control.
Reply
Cody 12 years, 4 months ago
@duuude I don't claim to know much about taxes- I'm just saying if we are going to make people pay their "fair share" maybe everyone should have to?
Also, I'm not against cutting some defense, and I'm definitely in favor cutting some entitlements as well though. I heard a quote recently- You get more of what you subsidize and less of what you penalize.
Reply
sam_acw 12 years, 4 months ago
Railways, the internet, highways, schools, hospitals - all of these were created long before any government decided they were part of a state's remit.
The problem isn't that we can't succeed without government, but that successive governments since the 1930s have tried very hard to make their citizens dependent.
Reply
CHAM3LEON 12 years, 4 months ago
You are retarded, everyone buy guns.....now
Reply
Robochess 12 years, 4 months ago
As a former business owner, I understand the fury, if taken out of context. I believe he was stating that America is great because we work hard, don't complain, and we innovate, but, that we all Should be grateful for the country we live in that allows us to do as we please, and to be grateful that people chose to do jobs we don't want to. Like it or not our country needs the lowliest and the most grandiose of workers for all of us to make it. We are simbiotic, granted the government is a parasite, but because they do provide infrastructure, there is much modern success that wouldn't be as well off without them. Yes the government doesn't make money, but they do spend it, and a portion does come back to us, to businesses and to people that support the businesses. Yes, tax dollars get wasted, yes people don't pay, or don't pay their fair share of taxes, but we can't all have the privilege of being a government worker and get off Scott free, our country would collapse. I think a flat tax, where everybody pays, even corporations and that all loop holes are gotten rid of, as well as subsidies.
Reply
DirtDoc 12 years, 4 months ago
An important note, one that needs to get repeated more. All Americans, or very nearly all (99.9999%) pay taxes. They pay sales taxes, they directly or directly pay property taxes, social security and other federal or state withholdings that don't qualify under "income tax". Not paying taxes and not making enough income to pay income taxes are not the same thing at all.
Another important note to make in this ever-going debate: hard work in the U.S. is necessary for success, but just because you work hard doesn't mean you'll be successful.
The fact is, we don't know how many people are taking advantage of the system. But that doesn't mean either side can use the argument from ignorance. It doesn't mean most are mooching. It doesn't mean most aren't, and just can't catch a break. It means we don't know.
And finally - the highway system as we know it was not created before government. The concept, sure, but the US highway system was a direct result of Eisenhower. Also, the internet was born directly out of DARPA funded research into networked computer systems, ARPANET being the flagship networked computer system.
Reply
mikekey 12 years, 4 months ago
Let's face it, this kind of moronic thinking is designed to illicit an emotional response from the stupid. And when I say stupid, I mean dumb self entitled people who think they are owed something for nothing. People who think life should be "Fair" according to "THEIR" own standards.
The problem is, to many people in this country don't realize that even as a broke person, you are the 1% compared to the rest of the planet. Just an FYI.
Reply