Traitor. He backed the digital truck up and didn't even know how important the stuff was that he was filling it with. OK, not just a traitor; an IDIOT traitor.
First of all, he isn't a traitor because he hasn't betrayed his country. He saw something that was scary, illegal, an overreach of authority, and did the best thing he could possibly do about it, going through great pains to make sure he leaked the info to the right people so as not to put his country in danger.
Second, for you to call him an idiot means you clearly don't know the first thing about him or the way he went about doing what he did.
Matt, you know I mostly agree with you but this time I may actually have the more cynical view. I know our "dear leaders" do bad stuff. I expect it and nothing really surprises me when it gets disclosed. But I got to hear Mike Morell (retire deputy chief) talk on his time at the CIA and one of the questions involved Snowden. It seems, shockingly enough, that we didn't get the entire story from the MSM. I also know we aren't getting the full story here so I admit I've made some inferences.
If Snowden had taken a few samples of some point he was trying to prove and told the press then, fine, I'd be all in on him whistleblowing. But Mr. Morell disclosed that Snowden downloaded rather large amounts of stuff well above his pay grade and that he could not have had any idea what he was stealing. Plans, strategic information, who knows what all?
So, I am also very cynical about human nature. Since he "shotgunned" his theft I have to think the original intent had a for-profit motive. At some point he realized he was in over his head and fabricated the whistleblower story, before or after the big boys came in and just took what they wanted, I'm not sure.
Anyway, he's screwed now. No big payday and no place to go. Thus, I vote traitor. I told you I was more cynical than you! ;)
Alright, let me play a little devil's advocate for a moment. Imagine you're "in the know" as Snowden was, and had access to this entire trove of data. Some of it is rather troubling, down right evil in fact. You feel conflicted. You realize, however, that exposing those responsible for committing these evil deeds would likely mean bad things will start happening to you to keep you quiet. But you can't just sit by and do nothing. In order to protect yourself and insure that the evil acts that have been committed do not go unpunished, you'd want to make sure you get everything you'd need to make a case the first time and get outta dodge. I don't expect you'd be able to snake one little piece of incriminating evidence, take it to the media, then go back for more if it sticks. I don't see the "Shotgun" collection of data as being absolutely indicative of "for-profit" motives, is all I'm getting at.
No, no. I get that. Any scenario is possible. We'll never know, for sure. That's just the first, easiest path my logic took when getting what little info we get, in the way of information. My first thought just does not go to altruistic motives.
Hero. Our government is full of a bunch of corrupt, power-hungry psychopaths and he stood up to them. He faces death, or life in prison without ever being able to see his family or home ever again so that you and I could learn of the insidious path our government has taken.
Snowden is, at best an un-trustworthy dishonorable man, and at worse a traitor. He made an oath. He promised, and signed such a promise, that he would not disclose the information for which he had been trusted with a clearance. I can tell you only how I feel as someone who has taken the same oaths, and that is this: I feel he is a man with little honor or commitment, and I imagine he and I are very different people. I don't think I would get along with him to put it mildly. On the other hand, he was right! Our leaders are spying on us. Illegaly. Unconstitutionally. His actions were personally despicable, but philosophically had merit. It's not an either-or for me on this issue. He disclosed the illegal, and unconstitutional actions of an agency of our government, and he did so in a despicable and dishonorable way.
Cobra, I'm right there with you. I took a oath every four years to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. That's why, had I come across the information Snowden did, I hope I would have had the courage to do what he did. Just because the government makes something classified doesn't mean that my oath binds me to keep it quiet if it is a flagrant violation of the constitution of the United States. I would feel duty-bound to reveal such secrets after much soul searching.
This is why I think Snowden is a hero and Manning is a traitor. S/he released stupid secrets, like emails from ambassadors whining about their counterparts in the country they served. That did nothing but embarrass people. Snowden showed how our government is breaking the law.
I see no good intention in what he did. I "feel" no more truth from his words than I did Bill Clinton ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman.") or Bowe Bergdahl ("I just dropped all my shit and went for a walk." - paraphrased). I don't believe he did this for any greater good.
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JakeLonergan 9 years, 5 months ago
Traitor. He backed the digital truck up and didn't even know how important the stuff was that he was filling it with. OK, not just a traitor; an IDIOT traitor.
Reply
Mattlockhart 9 years, 5 months ago
First of all, he isn't a traitor because he hasn't betrayed his country. He saw something that was scary, illegal, an overreach of authority, and did the best thing he could possibly do about it, going through great pains to make sure he leaked the info to the right people so as not to put his country in danger.
Second, for you to call him an idiot means you clearly don't know the first thing about him or the way he went about doing what he did.
Reply
JakeLonergan 9 years, 5 months ago
Matt, you know I mostly agree with you but this time I may actually have the more cynical view. I know our "dear leaders" do bad stuff. I expect it and nothing really surprises me when it gets disclosed. But I got to hear Mike Morell (retire deputy chief) talk on his time at the CIA and one of the questions involved Snowden. It seems, shockingly enough, that we didn't get the entire story from the MSM. I also know we aren't getting the full story here so I admit I've made some inferences.
If Snowden had taken a few samples of some point he was trying to prove and told the press then, fine, I'd be all in on him whistleblowing. But Mr. Morell disclosed that Snowden downloaded rather large amounts of stuff well above his pay grade and that he could not have had any idea what he was stealing. Plans, strategic information, who knows what all?
So, I am also very cynical about human nature. Since he "shotgunned" his theft I have to think the original intent had a for-profit motive. At some point he realized he was in over his head and fabricated the whistleblower story, before or after the big boys came in and just took what they wanted, I'm not sure.
Anyway, he's screwed now. No big payday and no place to go. Thus, I vote traitor. I told you I was more cynical than you! ;)
Reply
Mattlockhart 9 years, 5 months ago
Alright, let me play a little devil's advocate for a moment. Imagine you're "in the know" as Snowden was, and had access to this entire trove of data. Some of it is rather troubling, down right evil in fact. You feel conflicted. You realize, however, that exposing those responsible for committing these evil deeds would likely mean bad things will start happening to you to keep you quiet. But you can't just sit by and do nothing. In order to protect yourself and insure that the evil acts that have been committed do not go unpunished, you'd want to make sure you get everything you'd need to make a case the first time and get outta dodge. I don't expect you'd be able to snake one little piece of incriminating evidence, take it to the media, then go back for more if it sticks. I don't see the "Shotgun" collection of data as being absolutely indicative of "for-profit" motives, is all I'm getting at.
Reply
JakeLonergan 9 years, 5 months ago
No, no. I get that. Any scenario is possible. We'll never know, for sure. That's just the first, easiest path my logic took when getting what little info we get, in the way of information. My first thought just does not go to altruistic motives.
Reply
Mattlockhart 9 years, 5 months ago
Hero. Our government is full of a bunch of corrupt, power-hungry psychopaths and he stood up to them. He faces death, or life in prison without ever being able to see his family or home ever again so that you and I could learn of the insidious path our government has taken.
Reply
elsueco 9 years, 5 months ago
Ditto.
Reply
JakeLonergan 9 years, 5 months ago
See my answer above before you hate on me.
Reply
Cobrapilot 9 years, 5 months ago
Snowden is, at best an un-trustworthy dishonorable man, and at worse a traitor. He made an oath. He promised, and signed such a promise, that he would not disclose the information for which he had been trusted with a clearance. I can tell you only how I feel as someone who has taken the same oaths, and that is this: I feel he is a man with little honor or commitment, and I imagine he and I are very different people. I don't think I would get along with him to put it mildly. On the other hand, he was right! Our leaders are spying on us. Illegaly. Unconstitutionally. His actions were personally despicable, but philosophically had merit. It's not an either-or for me on this issue. He disclosed the illegal, and unconstitutional actions of an agency of our government, and he did so in a despicable and dishonorable way.
Reply
ahnyerkeester 9 years, 5 months ago
Cobra, I'm right there with you. I took a oath every four years to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. That's why, had I come across the information Snowden did, I hope I would have had the courage to do what he did. Just because the government makes something classified doesn't mean that my oath binds me to keep it quiet if it is a flagrant violation of the constitution of the United States. I would feel duty-bound to reveal such secrets after much soul searching.
This is why I think Snowden is a hero and Manning is a traitor. S/he released stupid secrets, like emails from ambassadors whining about their counterparts in the country they served. That did nothing but embarrass people. Snowden showed how our government is breaking the law.
Reply
Cobrapilot 9 years, 5 months ago
I constantly ask, "Would you have fought the British as an American colonist in 1776?"
Do have done so would have made you a traitor.
Reply
JakeLonergan 9 years, 5 months ago
I see no good intention in what he did. I "feel" no more truth from his words than I did Bill Clinton ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman.") or Bowe Bergdahl ("I just dropped all my shit and went for a walk." - paraphrased). I don't believe he did this for any greater good.
Reply
ben.terry 9 years, 5 months ago
He is a Traitor, he betrayed his oath.
Reply