I do not believe that women are 'unfit' for frontline infantry duty. I do believe that any nation that would put them there is uncivilized. Make of that what you will. I believe in general, the role of men is to protect women and the role of women is to civilize men. Now proceed with slings and arrows.
@kilroy: Are these societal roles or are these natural roles? If societal, then society can, and does, certainly advance; if natural, then what do you do with the women, in what would widely be regarded and accepted as civilized (whatever that means) societies, that have fought on front lines and protected men?
There should be one standard to meet in on physical fitness tests (regardless of gender or age). There are women who can not only pass the APFT according to the male scoring matrices, but can max it. There are many women who are better at firing M4s than men. If women want to serve in the infantry, I will have to see a better argument than, "That is just uncivilized" to convince me that they should not.
Jim, in all honesty it is merely personal prejudice. I was raised to respect women with what might be called a chivalric attitude. I do not believe that women cannot fight or defend themselves, I do believe that they should never have to. (Unfortunatly in this world there's no shortage of people that have no problem attacking a woman.) I agree with you that there should be one standard for any who choose to serve, but I despise the school of thought that says a woman only has equality when she is on the frontlines being turned into hamburger just like the male grunt next to her. I would never attempt to stop someone who wanted to serve her country from joining the military, but I would go to war with my own country if they attempted to draft women. I agree this is a nonsensical attitude for this day and age but hey just call me Don Quixote. In short I think women are too important for the survival of the human race than to be wasted in war, and we should find some better way to show them we value them.
@kilroy: There are two arguments going on here. The first one you are making appears to be this: A: If women are equal to men, they should be treated like men. B: Women are equal to men. C: Men are forced into the infantry. Therefore, D: Women should be forced into the infantry.
That argument is rife with both logical fallacies and presuppositions that are not generally accepted (namely, should some men be forced into the infantry).
The other argument, which has much more validity, is this: A: If women are equal to men, women should be treated like men. B: Men should be allowed to make their own decisions and should receive treatment according to their own merit. C: Women are equal to men. Therefore, D: Women should be allowed to make their own decisions and should receive treatment according to their own merit.
Thus, if a woman wants to decide to join the infantry and she meets the same physical fitness standards that everyone else in the infantry is required to meet, she should be allowed into the infantry.
Good comments fellas. I am torn on this matter. I was raised to cherish, respect, and protect women, not the other way around. My concern is that women captured in battle will be tortured, not only physically beaten but raped also. I have no doubt that many women are smarter, more physically capable, or even able to perform their given duty. My fear revolves around the mistreatment of POW women, they should never be subjected to that, nobody should.
I understand the problem you are having with the first part of the argument you listed. It is not based on logic, it is based on chivalry. A: Men and women are equal. B: Women should be treated better than men, because they are women.
Like I said, it is simply my personal prejudice but it is how I feel about this subject. I think it's more of an existential argument about the future of the human race.
Everyone here has failed to mention the biggest reason of all. The fact that young women will have an effect on young men that cannot be denied. it is biological and a fact of life. the introduction of women into a group of males changes the dynamic. in a military organization, especially an infantry unit, that change is detrimental. There will be attraction, there will be jealousy, there will be rivalry and all of those things are detrimental to a functioning combat unit.
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kilroy182 12 years, 2 months ago
I do not believe that women are 'unfit' for frontline infantry duty. I do believe that any nation that would put them there is uncivilized. Make of that what you will. I believe in general, the role of men is to protect women and the role of women is to civilize men. Now proceed with slings and arrows.
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jim.gillcrist 12 years, 2 months ago
@kilroy: Are these societal roles or are these natural roles? If societal, then society can, and does, certainly advance; if natural, then what do you do with the women, in what would widely be regarded and accepted as civilized (whatever that means) societies, that have fought on front lines and protected men?
There should be one standard to meet in on physical fitness tests (regardless of gender or age). There are women who can not only pass the APFT according to the male scoring matrices, but can max it. There are many women who are better at firing M4s than men. If women want to serve in the infantry, I will have to see a better argument than, "That is just uncivilized" to convince me that they should not.
Reply
kilroy182 12 years, 2 months ago
Jim, in all honesty it is merely personal prejudice. I was raised to respect women with what might be called a chivalric attitude. I do not believe that women cannot fight or defend themselves, I do believe that they should never have to. (Unfortunatly in this world there's no shortage of people that have no problem attacking a woman.)
I agree with you that there should be one standard for any who choose to serve, but I despise the school of thought that says a woman only has equality when she is on the frontlines being turned into hamburger just like the male grunt next to her. I would never attempt to stop someone who wanted to serve her country from joining the military, but I would go to war with my own country if they attempted to draft women. I agree this is a nonsensical attitude for this day and age but hey just call me Don Quixote. In short I think women are too important for the survival of the human race than to be wasted in war, and we should find some better way to show them we value them.
Reply
jim.gillcrist 12 years, 2 months ago
@kilroy: There are two arguments going on here. The first one you are making appears to be this:
A: If women are equal to men, they should be treated like men.
B: Women are equal to men.
C: Men are forced into the infantry.
Therefore, D: Women should be forced into the infantry.
That argument is rife with both logical fallacies and presuppositions that are not generally accepted (namely, should some men be forced into the infantry).
The other argument, which has much more validity, is this:
A: If women are equal to men, women should be treated like men.
B: Men should be allowed to make their own decisions and should receive treatment according to their own merit.
C: Women are equal to men.
Therefore, D: Women should be allowed to make their own decisions and should receive treatment according to their own merit.
Thus, if a woman wants to decide to join the infantry and she meets the same physical fitness standards that everyone else in the infantry is required to meet, she should be allowed into the infantry.
Reply
Robochess 12 years, 2 months ago
Good comments fellas. I am torn on this matter. I was raised to cherish, respect, and protect women, not the other way around.
My concern is that women captured in battle will be tortured, not only physically beaten but raped also. I have no doubt that many women are smarter, more physically capable, or even able to perform their given duty. My fear revolves around the mistreatment of POW women, they should never be subjected to that, nobody should.
Reply
kilroy182 12 years, 2 months ago
I understand the problem you are having with the first part of the argument you listed. It is not based on logic, it is based on chivalry.
A: Men and women are equal.
B: Women should be treated better than men, because they are women.
Like I said, it is simply my personal prejudice but it is how I feel about this subject. I think it's more of an existential argument about the future of the human race.
Reply
tinman97030 12 years, 2 months ago
I agree Kilroy, women are worth protecting because they are women.
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sam_acw 12 years, 2 months ago
The decision needs to be made on the basis of military efficiency, not social equality.
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Cobrapilot 12 years, 2 months ago
Everyone here has failed to mention the biggest reason of all. The fact that young women will have an effect on young men that cannot be denied. it is biological and a fact of life. the introduction of women into a group of males changes the dynamic. in a military organization, especially an infantry unit, that change is detrimental. There will be attraction, there will be jealousy, there will be rivalry and all of those things are detrimental to a functioning combat unit.
Reply